== https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupul_Carpatin_F%C4%83g%C4%83r%C4%83%C8%99an ==
To whom it may concern
The reason why I revert to the previous form of the page is because it is the mirror page of
https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grupul_Carpatin_F%C4%83g%C4%83r%C4%83%C8%99an
Your comment "this is a horrendous mess of an article" it is really "'''very objective'''".
On https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_anti-communist_resistance_movement there are no details about this Group, just a short mention of Ogoranu.
Please free to email me on bogdan.bobolea@gmail.com
I have subtitled the movie that deals with this group:
http://youtu(dot)be/KzvWxPIekKQ
And also for your knowledge you can watch this clip, too.
http://youtu(dot)be/medQcDcgHwc
Regards,
Bogdan Bobolea
PS
What is your nationality ?
21:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
JAC16888
:I'll address your post-script first, my nationality is irrelevant, and yours should be too. I have reverted your restoration, in it's current state this article does not belong on Wikipedia, it is badly written and translated, overly biased and barely sourced, the fact that it relates to a Romanian Wikipedia page is irrelevant. If you feel there should be an article on this group please begin by expanding the [[Romanian anti-communist resistance movement]] page, or by creating a page from scratch using [[WP:AFC]]. Do not restore it again-- 21:57, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
EU
0. Please bring proof that the page is bad translated !
1. Based on what principle there is no option to have a separate page regarding this Group ?
2.The page you decided to "delete" is the translation of the Romanian page. So your argument "the fact that it relates to a Romanian Wikipedia page is irrelevant". In this case you should delete that page, too.
3. The Romanian page has a lot of books in the Biography. The same books were listed in the page deleted by you.
4. You should have start this discussion regarding these allegations NOT to delete it !
5. How can you judge if the information was biased if you can't speak / read / understand Romanian.
6. I don't think that your last idea seems to sound as a threat. Is it or not ?
7. I would like to bring this discussion to a higher level - having a sort of umpire that would listen to our ideas and decide accordingly.
Have a nice day ! 22:24, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
JAC16888
:Content on the Romanian Wikipedia has no bearing on the English Wikipedia and vice-versa, the two are entirely independent. The bias of the page is clear when it includes long and dramatic quotes from members of the group. I am not saying there should be no article on the group, rather I am saying you should start again without basing it on an obviously biased translation. Create a page at [[[[User:Bogdan.bobolea/Sandbox]] and begin again, include hard facts only, as many [[WP:REF|references]] as you can (i.e. more than just two documents of unclear origin, and take a look at articles on similar subjects for an idea of what you should be doing, such as [[American Indian Movement]] or [[Prague Spring]], then submit the page to [[WP:AFC]] and allow it to be properly assessed by expert article writers--[[User:Jac16888|<font color="Blue">Jac</font><font color="Green">16888</font>]] [[User talk:Jac16888|<sup><font color="red">Talk</font></sup>]] 22:52, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
EU
Hello Jac,
A.
You are saying:
“''Content on the Romanian Wikipedia has no bearing on the English Wikipedia and vice-versa, the two are entirely independent''.“
My reply:
''“From Wikipedia’s “Terms of Use”:
“Part of our mission is to:
- Empower and Engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content […].
- Disseminate this content effectively and globally, free of charge.
You are free to:
Contribute To and Edit our various sites or Projects.
1. Our Services
The Wikimedia Foundation is dedicated to encouraging the growth, development and distribution of free multilingual content, and to hosting the full content of these wiki-based Projects for the public free of charge. Our role is to host some of the largest collaboratively edited reference Projects in the world […]”''
a) I couldn’t find any mention regarding the fact that it is forbidden to have a Wiki page mirrored in another language;
b) How on Earth does Wikipedia fulfill its mission (to disseminate effectively and globally) if you are denying the existence of twin pages in other languages?
c) If it is possible to have a version in English of a Romanian Wiki page, for what purpose the English version '''must''' have lesser words than the original one?
d) By deleting the page using very “''objective remarks''” (“''this is a horrendous mess of an article''”) have you or haven’t you broken the idea “''Our role is to host some of the largest collaboratively edited reference Projects in the world”''? From where I am standing the deleting action is not a sign of '''cooperation'''.
Why didn’t you put a warning as usual: “''This page has some issues''”? or “''This page will be deleted in two weeks because of the following criteria a)… b)… etc'' ?” so I could had adjusted it accordingly.
Why did you leave the link valid so it would be a circular reference?
When you are on the page and you click on Grupul Carpatin Făgărăşan it goes back to the beginning of the same page.
You did a similar action before:
''Turbinia
Hello you have made a change here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turbinia&oldid=prev&diff=591146894 . You have left a live link but it now goes nowhere. I wonder whether you intended this and if so why. Robertforsythe (talk) 11:01, 18 January 2014 (UTC)
Links from the articlespace to the userspace are not allowed, as userpages are not subject to the rules and guidelines that articles are. I left the link for the possibility that the subject could be an article one day, if that is not the case please remove it--Jac16888 Talk 13:32, 18 January 2014 (UTC)''
Should I be biased (as you are enjoying so much using this word) to presume that you had left in both situations a valid link so the persons who created those pages to think that everything is OK? A broken link (red) would have triggered the alarm, wouldn’t it?
B.
You are saying:
“''The bias of the page is clear when it includes long and dramatic quotes from members of the group''”.
I am saying:
Since have you advised me to study about the Indian movement look what I have found:
bestessayhelp(dot)com/examples/history/native-american-studies/history-research-methods-appropriate-bias-%E2%80%93-essay-sample
History Research Methods. Appropriate Bias? – Essay Sample
McCullagh, C. Behan. “Bias in Historical Description, Interpretation, and Explanation.” History & Theory 39.1 (2000): 39.Academic Search Complete. EBSCO. Web. 3 Aug. 2011.
''History is made by those who write it, so it is unsurprising that bias is present in historical descriptions, interpretations, and explanations. However, few people realize the extent and severity of the bias commonly showed in historical texts, and avoiding cultural bias is often difficult to identify- much less correct.
McCullagh claims that personal bias is not as harmful as cultural bias […]''
C.
You are saying:
''“I am not saying there should be no article on the group, rather I am saying you should start again without basing it on an obviously biased translation.
Create a page at [[User:Bogdan.bobolea/Sandbox and begin again, include hard facts only, as many references as you can (i.e. more than just two documents of unclear origin, […]''”
I am saying:
The references used in the page are written by
1.Ion Gavrila Ogoranu – the leader of that Carpathian Group Fagarasan
2.Florian Banu :
- has a PhD in History, superior councilor at the National Council for studying the Securitate Archive;
- is co-editor of ”Bande, bandiţi şi eroi”. Grupurile de rezistenţă din munţi şi Securitatea (1948-1968), Bucureşti, Editura Enciclopedică, 2003, (co-editor); ("Gangs, bandits and heroes” Resistance groups from the mountains and Securitate;
- author of “Securitatea. Structuri/cadre, obiective şi metode, vol. I (1948-1967), Bucureşti, Editura Enciclopedică, 2006 (co-editor); (Securitate. Structures/ staffing, objectives and methods);
- co-author of România. 1945-1989. Enciclopedia regimului comunist. Represiunea. A-E, Bucureşti, Institutul Naţional pentru Studiul Totalitarismului, 2011 (co-autor). (Romania. 1945 – 1989. The Communism Encyclopedia. Repression A-E)
The book written by professor Florian Banu used as reference is called “''Mişcarea de rezistenţă armată anticomunistă din România - între negare şi hiperbolizare/ Publicat în Rezistenţa anticomunistă – cercetare ştiinţifică şi valorificare muzeală, vol.I'' “ (The armed anticommunism resistance movement from Romania – between denial and augmentation – published in Anticommunism Resistance – scientific research and museum capitalization, Vol. I)
I translated the ideas that were relevant. I didn’t know that in order to publish a page on Wiki I need to perform a research similar to a Master's or a PhD Diploma and to read so many books. If you had left the page as it was, some readers (not you) would have had the chance to challenge the information provided by me and to write other ideas, different than those exposed by me.
''“From Wikipedia’s “Terms of Use”:
a. We do not take an editorial role: Because the Wikimedia Projects are collaboratively edited, all of the content that we host is provided by users like yourself, and we do not take an editorial role. This means that we generally do not monitor or edit the content of the Project websites, and we do not take any responsibility for this content.''
From my point of view, you have grossly breached this rule.
PS
And finally: I am proud to be Romanian. This is the reason why I am writing about my fellows who died in the mountains fighting against the Communism and I am disseminating information about their actions. Of course my English is bad, but nobody is perfect.
As McCullagh said ''“'''the personal bias is not as harmful as cultural bias'''”'', I strongly suggest to take your time and watch those two YouTube video translated into English by me. If you don’t trust my English: I have a translator diploma (English – Romanian) and I worked two years in UK.
By the way, would you be so kind to tell me how can I contact directly the person who oversees/ who is monitoring your activity to inform him/ her about our misunderstandings?
Thank you!
Niciun comentariu:
Trimiteți un comentariu